Plenty of RPGs have unbalanced rules or abilities, and sometimes those broken powers get so out of control that they bring the entire game to a screeching halt. This episode we’ll tell our own stories of RPG destruction. We’ll talk about magic systems that go too far, swords that can kill anything, and the consequences of steady income streams. Plus, Johnathan explains how he breaks every adventure by flying straight to the end.
Generously transcribed by Perspiring Writer. Volunteer to transcribe a podcast.
Chris: You’re listening to the Mythcreants podcast, with your hosts: Oren Ashkenazi, Wes Matlock, and Chris Winkle. [opening song]
Oren: And welcome, everyone, to another episode of the Mythcreants podcast. I’m Oren; with me today is…
Oren: And returning once again, special guest host…
Oren: Alright, everyone; welcome to this next topic, which is RPG mechanics that broke games we were in. They can be ones we were running or ones we were playing in. I just have a whole list here, and I would like to share some of them with you. Jim, you are the guest, would you like to go first?
Johnathan: Yeah. My favorite RPG mechanic that the system, I don’t think, was prepared for was the Perfect Knowledge ability in Legend of the Five Rings.
Oren: Oh, no. [laughs]
Johnathan: It really ruins any secret doors or things that are written down. Perfect Knowledge is just so, like- when you’re using words like ‘perfect’, or ‘ultimate’, or just anything that encapsulates the highest possible order of a concept, that, taken to its literal meaning, is very damaging to trying to apply it logically.
I was playing a blind monk of some sort in L5R, but I had the ability to have Perfect Knowledge of everything within a certain radius of me. And so, how this ended up breaking the game was, there was a notebook hidden in a secret compartment that had all of the secrets of the mystery going on.
Oren: There were just- all of them were in that notebook?
Johnathan: It was just written down, all of the stuff that was happening. And so, with Perfect Knowledge, I knew that there was a secret compartment, and with Perfect Knowledge, I knew there was a notebook, and I told the DM I wanted to read it. And the DM told me I was blind, so I couldn’t read it. And I was like, ‘but I have Perfect Knowledge of this notebook. How can I not know what’s inside of it?’
Chris: Does this ability just make you omniscient? Is that what it does?
Johnathan: Well, it’s within a certain radius, right? I think it’s like twenty or thirty feet. But like, if the notebook is within that, and since I don’t need light to see pages in the first place, why would the book being closed, if I have, quote-unquote, ‘Perfect Knowledge,’ prevent me from reading the ink and knowing what formation the ink is on the page?
It’s just, the wording of ‘perfect’ is so busted. And you know, the DM said, ‘no, you can’t do it.’ And there’s- probably the right move overall, but it really leaves it up in the air of like, ‘what does this ability mean if it’s not actually perfect? What am I doing here?’ I no longer understand- cause the words you’ve written down can’t mean what they mean, so now they mean nothing.
And just like, poorly thought-out phrasing in games will leave players and DMs at an impasse of what they actually paid character creation points for.
Oren: In that game, if I recall correctly, Ari, the GM, was assuming that it meant you would get all the information as if you were looking at something in bright light, as opposed to like, ‘all hidden objects are revealed,’ but it totally could mean ‘all hidden objects are revealed,’ right?
Chris: Yeah, the wording of that reminds me of something you’ve described before, Oren. I think this was in the Firefly game.
Oren: Oh, yeah?
Chris: Where there’s a TN for ‘Impossible’ tasks.
Oren: Oh, God. [Chris laughs]
Chris: There’s actually a number that is assigned to doing impossible things, that- you can potentially pass that number, and then do things that are impossible.
Oren: Right. I mean, the- sort of the core problem with Firefly, that whole system, when I played it, was that it was very easy to stack enough dice to just roll incredibly high, even in character creation. And the icing on the cake, of terribleness, was that if you rolled a 32- which was not hard to do, if you were really focused on one skill, you could do it; you would do something that was ‘impossible’.
And so, it makes it very hard to be- it’s like, we had this one-shot where it depends on the ship crashing at the beginning, and that was a cutscene, and they were like, ‘we would like to fix the ship by melting down a bunch of local rocks and making new metal out of it.’ And I was like, ‘that- you can’t do that. That’s-’ and then they said, ‘would you say that’s IMPOSSIBLE?’ [laughter]
The fact that it says ‘Impossible’ makes it a little worse, but even if it hadn’t, there was definitely still an issue of it being way too easy to hyper-specialize. And if you took a skill like Persuasion that you were hyper-specialized in, it’s like, ‘well, I can just talk anyone we meet into doing anything.’ And that was very, very damaging to the game.
Johnathan: I think that was me doing the impossible repairs, wasn’t it? I seem to remember this.
Oren: Look, Jim, I’m not going to name any names here, but yes. [Johnathan laughs] Johnathan, that was definitely you. So, I actually- the first one on my list is also L5R. I played a lot of L5R, so we’ve discovered a whole lot of things that break it over the years.
But there’s an advantage in Legend of the Five Rings called the ‘Higher Purpose’ advantage, which gives you an experience point whenever you do a thing that brings you closer to whatever your ‘Higher Purpose’ is.
And in the most recent edition, that was limited to once a session; but it didn’t used to be. It used to be it just triggered every time you did a thing in pursuit of your higher purpose. And like, I saw one player use this, and his higher purpose was like, ‘become the best duelist.’
Chris: Oh, no.
Oren: So, every time he practiced, he would get experience points, so by the end of the game- the GM just let him do it, so by the end of the game, he was like, rank five, and the rest of us were two or three. It was ridiculous. And then, for some reason, the GM let me do it in the next game.
Chris: The GM did not learn. [laughs]
Oren: Yeah. So, I did it; and this was even like, kind of a competitive strategy game, and in retrospect, I feel a little bad, cause I made a character whose goal was like, ‘make a strong navy.’ And so, every time I built a ship, or a port, or did something on the water, I would get an experience point, and I was so overpowered. [Johnathan laughs]
Chris: Pretty soon, all of the PCs have this one ability.
Oren: I was surprised that I was the only one who took it that time. I think everyone else just kind of didn’t notice, but I was on that. So broken.
Chris: Well, since we’re on L5R- it’s probably not as broken as what you were talking about, but I do remember the L5R game I played, and Oren was the GM. [laughs] The Air Shugenja was hard to handle.
Oren: The Air Shugenja is so overpowered in L5R.
Chris: The issue is the fact that L5R has these four elements, and they each have spells associated with them, but they also have certain skills and abilities, because it’s- you’re rolling skill plus attribute, and the attribute is linked to your level in that element. So, by having a super high Air element attribute, you get cool Air spells, and then the Air skills are both sneaking around, and the social rolls.
So, it was really easy to just- and I don’t think- I mean, it might have helped if the social rolls had been divided enough. I know there was a separate Etiquette skill, and not just a Courtier skill, but it really did feel like I could use a Courtier skill for just about anything.
Oren: Right, and Etiquette is also- so, the issue is that the Air ring is made up of the stats Reflexes and Awareness. And Awareness is tied with almost all social skills, and it’s also really easy to convince the GM to let you use Awareness to spot things. Technically, you’re supposed to use Perception for that, but most people forget that Perception exists, and it’s really easy to be like, ‘yeah, I think I would be AWARE of that.’ [Chris laughs]
And then, Reflexes is by far the most powerful combat stat, because it makes you harder to hit, and makes you go first, and it makes you accurate with a bow and arrow. And to this day, I am amazed that the L5R designers thought that was a disadvantage of archery, was that you used Reflexes instead of Agility. It’s like, ‘no, that just means I only need one stat instead of two.’ And on top of all of this, you’re casting spells. The spells were already really strong, right?
That character was so hard to contain.
Chris: It was. I mean, I could basically convince anyone of anything, and if they didn’t agree with me, I could assassinate them instead. [laughs]
Johnathan: The logical next step.
Chris: So, what happened in this game is, Oren just started making the difficulty level for my rolls ridiculously high. It’s like, ‘okay, you want to convince her? 35 TN.’ It’s like, nobody else in this game has a 35 TN. But it was okay, cause I could still do it. [Chris and Johnathan laugh]
Oren: It’s fine. I mean, this game did- it did illustrate really clearly why powergaming is a problem. Cause frankly, Chris is not the worst player to have powergamed. Other players can be more disruptive with it.
But just like, having one player who is super powergamed above what all the other characters can do causes issues, because it’s like, if you up the difficulty so that they have a challenge, even if these are not difficulties that the rest of the party ever has to deal with, it still feels weird.
It’s like, ‘why is the world on hard mode for me? I’m not trying to do anything harder than what these other characters are doing, but their difficulties are all lower than mine.’ Or, you can just let them succeed at everything all the time, and then the other players feel cheated, because they’re like, ‘why do I have to fail sometimes, and that player never does?’
It’s like, ‘sorry I didn’t spend five hours mathing out the perfect character.’ That was a really good illustration to me of why game balance matters. Cause it’s very easy for some people to be like, ‘ah, whatever, no one’s trying to win. Why does game balance in an RPG matter? Just play your character and have fun.’ I’m like, ‘well, turns out it’s a little more complicated than that.’
Chris: Yeah, there is an inherent sense of fairness between the players that is easily upset by one player being super powerful, whether it’s doing some sort of kill stealing, or whether it’s the GM giving you equal opportunities, or various things like that. And in this case, I don’t really try to powergame. Sometimes I’m looking at abilities, and I see something that I think is powerful, and I go for it.
I think, with the Air Shugenja: I like doing social characters, and I like doing sneaky characters, so the Air ring was just a natural fit for what I like to roleplay. But I wasn’t deliberately trying to be overpowered, that’s just what I wanted to play. So, stumbling into something like that without deliberately trying to powergame is not a good sign.
Oren: I’ve had, a number of times, players accidentally powergamed stuff. Although, once it happens enough times, I start to wonder if it’s really an accident. I know that with Jim, it’s never an accident. [Chris laughs] Jim once convinced me to let him make a sword that completely broke the World of Darkness damage conventions.
And it was like, ‘yeah, okay. This sword one-shots everything. There’s nothing in the game it can’t one-shot.’ And so, I eventually just had to start introducing bad guys who were immune to it. Which, like- I didn’t feel great about doing that. I was like, ‘this is obviously contrived.’ But I’m sorry, Jim; I can’t let you one-shot every villain before the other players get a chance to do something.
Johnathan: But it’s really fun to one-shot the villains. And to be fair, my school of magic was death magic, so I should just kill things. That just checks out.
Oren: I mean, that was another problem with Mage, is that the way that death magic was worded made it kind of sound like it could do a lot of what all the other magics did, as long as you added the ‘Death’ qualifier to stuff. [Johnathan laughs]
Johnathan: Have access to corpses, and now you’re every sort of mage.
Oren: And this sort of balance issue is particularly bad in games where everyone is working on the same thing, like in D&D, where combat is sort of the thing that it’s assumed everyone participates in, cause I remember in Jim’s 5E game, my brother Ari was just playing a druid; not even a particularly powergamed druid, just a druid.
And he was so much better than the rest of us, that it just made me like, ‘why am I even getting out of bed? This druid is here, he’s just going to town.’
Johnathan: Just let the bear handle it.
Oren: He is just a bear now, and then he turns back into a druid at full health, even though- ehh. Somehow, all that extra damage just went off to the bear dimension with his bear shape. It’s gone now. [Chris laughs]
Johnathan: Eventually, I gave him enough fireballs that he had to go to sleep, and then other people got to fight. It’s great.
Oren: But you had to very carefully aim those fireballs, right?
Johnathan: Yeah, you have to be careful.
Oren: Cause like, otherwise the rest of us just would have died. And that was probably the best play, but ideally, you’d like to be in a situation where you don’t have to do that, right?
Chris: Johnathan, you should tell us about your super-faithful rat person- [laughs] -that you played in one of our Burning Wheel games; you remember that?
Johnathan: [sighs] The Faith mechanic. The Faith mechanic in Burning Wheel is so incredibly busted. It’s essentially magic, except more vague. Spellcasters in Burning Wheel- first of all, you have to pay resources to have access to spells, so those spells have limited application. And some of the spells are honestly busted as well, but at least there’s a cost that, when you cast a spell, you have a chance to do damage to yourself that can be pretty deadly if you flub a roll.
Faith, on the other hand; there’s no chance of doing damage to yourself, and it’s much vaguer, so you don’t have to specialize into a certain type of magic, and on top of that, you don’t pay resources to have access to these Faith-type abilities, they just are harder to do based on how good they are, but they use the same Faith stat, which naturally explodes on sixes, you get to roll more dice.
So, I played a faithful rat cleric that could immobilize anybody, no anything; heal wounds, just like- there’s nothing Faith doesn’t do; it wins you combat, it solves mysteries, it fixes damage, it’s the most categorically unfair specialization I’ve ever seen. It does come with some abilities to restrain it. Like, the idea that your god wouldn’t answer these sorts of prayers, I believe is built in.
But then you get into this deal where you’re asking for stuff and trying to make an argument to your DM of why your deity would be into it. And it’s an all-or-nothing argument, like, it’s either, you fix it with Faith cause you won that discussion, or you’re useless because you didn’t win that discussion. And now you’re not helping, cause it’s Faith or get out.
Oren: Right. And in that particular game, the god that you worshipped was just sort of generically good and would do whatever you needed. But I’ve looked at the Faith rules, and there’s not really anything in there to be like, ‘certain gods will only answer these kinds of prayers.’ It’s all very like, ‘yeah, you know, whatever, your GM will figure it out.’
And it’s like, with something that powerful, it’s just kind of rude to leave the GM in a position where they have to just decide by fiat whether a god would accept these prayers. And the real damning thing about Faith is that it costs you nothing, and there’s no price for failure. It just goes. And because Burning Wheel is a learn-by-doing system, you just keep rolling Faith at everything, and your Faith continues to go up.
And then eventually, you’re just like I think eventually, you hit Faith 10 and have to make a new character. That’s the only balancing factor to Faith.
Johnathan: Yeah, if your Faith gets too high, you ascend. Literally. And your character gets deleted.
Oren: Make a new character with Faith. [Oren and Chris laugh]
Johnathan: But that takes forever. Like, that’s not going to happen in the natural course of play. Especially because, eventually, you’ll need to traverse from 9 to 10 Faith, and you’ll need 9 failures, but when you have 9 Faith, you’re going to succeed at almost everything you pray for.
So, the track stops running, and the only things you’re going to fail at are like, major miracles, which succeeding at disrupt the game a lot, and you have to try at least 9 of them. The math doesn’t check out, as to aging out through too much Faith.
Oren: It’s about as likely as a mage character putting too many points into their Arete stat, I think it was called. And then like, ‘sorry, you hit Arete 10.’ least with the mage, you have to make the conscious choice to spend experience points, but it’s still very unlikely that will ever happen.
One of my personal favorites is just, the skill system in Call of Cthulhu, and all those percentile systems, basically. Because those are static difficulty systems- I talk about these a lot, where it doesn’t matter what you’re doing, the difficulty is always based on your skill. It’s like, you’re always trying to roll equal to or under whatever your skill is on a 1 to 100 rating.
And in theory, some of these games allow the GM to impose penalties or give you bonuses for easy or hard tasks, but that’s an extra step, and most GMs forget about those, because there’s nothing requiring you to add them. Whereas in a normal game, if you don’t set a difficulty, the roll doesn’t happen.
But in a Call of Cthulhu game, if you just forget; and most of you do, there’s nothing to make you go back; and then like, it also just feels like something extra. Players feel like they’re being penalized by having an extra difficulty put on them. So, it’s just kind of unpleasant. And in reality, even in systems that specifically say you can do that, it almost never happens.
And so, what you end up with is, if you have like, a 99 percent in something, you can just do whatever you want with that skill. And if it’s one of the more broadly applicable ones, that breaks the game really fast.
Johnathan: 99 percent Dodge is going to trivialize most combat. [Chris laughs]
Oren: Uh-huh. At least most- I think in actual- in most versions of Call of Cthulhu, there’s a limit on how many attacks you can Dodge in one round. But yeah, even then, it’s a problem. And if it’s like, Fast Talk- like, I listened to a Call of Cthulhu actual play once, where the character had a 95 in Fast Talk, and basically, just, every problem was solved by that guy lying.
Cause he could just make people believe whatever he wanted, and he has a 95 percent chance of succeeding no matter how absurd the lie is.
Chris: One of my favorite broken game things happened with the Marvel role-playing game. This was a campaign that went so wrong, so fast- I think maybe we only got one, maybe two sessions in. [Johnathan laughs]
Oren: Oh, no.
Chris: It was just- it was terrible. But the Marvel role-playing game- we’ve talked about, I think, several times there’s been a theme of vague rules being a problem. And the rules of the game were just very flimsy altogether. They were very brief, and when the rules are not specific, it leaves the GM and players- the GM with arguments from the players to choose whatever feels natural, and a lot of times, that’s just way OP.
So, in this case, I had a character that took Invisibility and Insubstantiality, so I could just basically be without substance and walk through walls and appear again, which when you think about it, it’s like, ‘okay, that doesn’t seem too bad.’ But the way that it worked in the rules is- okay, I did have to use- there were like, power tokens, and I did have to expend energy to be insubstantial, so I couldn’t do it forever.
But the rules specify that, if you are touching an item, it becomes insubstantial with you. They just say that, and that seems natural too; I mean, you don’t want to imagine that you’re not gonna like, take your clothes- [laughs] -and then appear naked somewhere.
Johnathan: No thank you.
Chris: But this just allowed me to take items and put them inside enemies and let go.
Oren: Oh, no.
Johnathan: Dude! [Chris laughs]
Oren: Chris, why would you do this?
Johnathan: That seems rude to do.
Chris: So, just imagine: this GM has like, carefully planned out this stage where we were going to fight this villain, and there were mooks around the outside, and the villain on the inside. We had to get to the center of this building. So then, I just go- I don’t even have to go invisible, truthfully. I did anyway, I think.
And so, I just go, and I just walk through the mooks, cause I’m insubstantial, go straight up to the center of the building and find the villain, and just put like, a bar in his head. [laughs] That was not-
Oren: Oh no.
Chris: All of the GMs carefully laid plans- laughs] were just-
Oren: Chris, you’re a monster. [Chris laughs] You’re a monster. [Johnathan laughs]
Chris: Yeah. The GM was pretty- I have to say, was pretty- ‘you’re just going to kill this guy? You’re not going to take him to jail? Or…’
Johnathan: Look, he’s going to break out of jail. That’s just- if it’s in the Marvel universe…
Oren: We’ve all read comics.
Johnathan: We know. [Chris laughs]
Chris: So, that didn’t make it really hard to plan. And that was not the only problem, but it just- with everything going on, it just collapsed very quickly. [Chris and Johnathan laugh]
Oren: That’s, I think, the first one we’ve gotten so far that actually ended a game. Like, all the ones that Jim and I have been talking about, the GM found a way to keep going. But in this one, it was like, ‘nope. I can’t do it.’ [Chris laughs] ‘It’s too powerful, I give up.’
Chris: If we had done a second session, the GM told me that he was going to nerf my abilities. [Johnathan laughs] So, if you have to pull this player aside and be like, ‘okay, this- I’m sorry. This can’t continue.’ [laughs] ‘We’re going to have to change things.’
Johnathan: This is not tenable.
Oren: One of my favorites- and again, our GM was such a good sport about this. When we were playing- Jim was in this game, this was a while back; we played this D20 Star Wars module that was like, a four- or five-part adventure. And… we just destroyed it. Like, it was clearly not designed for anyone who powergamed, and the fights were so easy.
We would roll up on this gang of speeder bike hooligans who were like, ‘we’re scary badasses!’ [Johnathan laughs] And in like, one round of laser fire, we just wiped all of them out. And it felt kind of bad. But at the same time, also a power fantasy; we were like, ‘yeah, we are the biggest badasses of the Star Wars universe.’
I think, ironically, Jim’s character ended up being the least effective, even though- you could like, kill anything by grappling it for three rounds.
Johnathan: It was a three-round kill button by grappling them; I was a giant murder grapple robot. But it didn’t matter, because the rest of the party could just laser-blast everything to death before I got there. [Chris laughs] It did- I was the most useful member of the party once, when we were ambushed by a bunch of like, poison animals, or something? But I was a robot, so I didn’t care, and I woke up, and I grappled one to death. And I was like, ‘okay.’
Oren: Oh, right. Yeah, that was great, seeing- by that point in the game, things had obviously become so easy, that like, I was on watch when we got grappled, and I decided not to wake everyone up, just to see if I could handle this encounter on my own as like, the least combat-intensive character.
And I couldn’t quite. I eventually had to wake up the rest of the party, because my character’s ability was that I could- I could roll Demolitions to double the damage on any kind of explosive. Which, in personal combat, wasn’t that useful because we were mostly using blasters. But I convinced the GM that it should apply to torpedoes.
Johnathan: I mean, why not?
Oren: And so, in ship combat, it was just completely ridiculous; and like, our sniper could shoot out to the curve of the horizon with no range penalties. It was pretty amazing. We just completely destroyed that scenario.
Johnathan: Yeah, modules seem drastically unprepared for people that understand how character-building works in a mathematically- not even like, powergaming to the absolute maximum, but just picking skills and abilities that synergize with each other in any meaningful way. Modules just seem to collapse.
And also, they don’t respect fundamental utility spells. I was playing in a module where there was a dam that was overtaken by Ogres. And you’re supposed to go in at the bottom of this dam, and it’s a big spooky demon dam; which was weird, cause it’s like, this giant dam that’s a public works project, but it was made by a demon centuries ago, and I was like, ‘do we not want the dam? It seems useful.’
But we- at any rate, I could fly, and was incredibly strong. So, I just picked up all my friends and flew to the top of the dam. And the DM was like, ‘oh.’
Johnathan: ‘Here’s Ogre wizard, who’s the boss.’ And I was like, ‘okay, we murder them.’ And we did. And that was the end of the dungeon. It was just like, well. If someone in your group can fly, and you don’t have a plan for that, you’re going to get most of your content skipped, cause so much content relies on encountering troubles on your way somewhere.
But if you can just get there, it doesn’t matter. Much like being insubstantial and just floating through all the mooks; if you fly over them, who cares? There’s another entire game that wasn’t even a module that someone ran, and you’re supposed to follow a lead of like, several different encounters to get to where someone was kidnapped, and I was like, ‘oh. Well, I can fly, so, I’m going to take all my friends and we’ll fly over there.’
And they were like, ‘oh. Yeah, there’s nothing stopping you.’ And it was like, ‘okay, we solved the game, right?’
Oren: I once accidentally broke a Firefly module by having the trait where you’re not poor. [Chris and Johnathan laugh]
Chris: Just not being poor; that’s it?
Oren: I mean, it says you’re rich, but the actual mechanics I don’t think make you rich. They give you some money, but it’s not a ton. But it was enough, because this module assumed we were going to do a bunch of work for various on-planet factions just for exposure. Like, we would build up credit points, and then they would eventually deign to give us some work.
Chris: Oh, geez.
Oren: And I was like, ‘no. I don’t have to work for exposure. I’m not dirt-poor, I have resources to fall back on. And so we just left. [Chris and Johnathan laugh]
Johnathan: I don’t want to play this game. You can’t make me.
Oren: Yeah, this is obviously a bad deal, and like, I have enough resources that you can’t exploit me for this. And then I left. It was pretty amazing. [laughter] We are almost out of time, so I just want to give one last example of a mechanic I did not think would be broken but turned out to be really broken:
This was actually during the playtesting for Rising Tide, and it was beds. Beds were just way too powerful. [Chris laughs] You got a bed, and then the moment your ship’s got decent beds, you can just park it anytime you want it, and just rest all of your conditions away.
And it was like, there was no danger; it was like, ‘alright, guys, hang on. I know we just got like, completely shot up, and our boat’s full of holes, but let’s just take a moment and get on our nice beds, and everything will be okay. [Chris laughs]
Chris: The safety blanket.
Johnathan: Just take a little nappy-poo. [sic]
Oren: And it’s like, ‘guys, I’m glad the beds are important, I wanted them to be important. I didn’t want them to be this important.’ [laughter]
Johnathan: You’re always fumbling into sleep-related overpowered mechanics, cause this reminds me of the pajama-swapping. [laughter] Your test for pajamas, and how they give a bonus to your- what was the roll they helped on? Exhausted?
Oren: Okay, so, it was a roll to- it was like, they gave you +1 die to recover from Exhausted in Torchbearer. And that, on its own, wasn’t super powerful. It was mostly just kind of the ridiculousness of everyone being like, ‘okay, hang on, I’m gonna wear the jammies now and take my nap.’
That was- it wasn’t really that it was overpowered, so much as that was just kind of a ridiculous idea.
Chris: And they were old, like, children’s school uniforms, too, weren’t they, that we had found as loot somewhere?
Oren: And you guys were playing a bunch of halflings, so that was like- they fit you. [Chris laughs] Mostly, I loved that game. I did not really love the pajama swapping. [Chris laughs]
Oren: Alright, well, I think that’s gonna do it for today. Thank you for joining us again, Jim.
Johnathan: Thanks for having me.
Oren: Those of you at home, if anything we said piqued your interest, you can leave a comment on the website at Mythcreants.com. But before we go, I just want to thank two of our patrons. First, Kathy Ferguson, who is a professor of Political Theory in Star Trek, And second, Ayman Jaber. You can find his stuff on thefantasywarrior.com. Otherwise, we will talk to you next week. [closing song]
Chris: This has been the Mythcreants podcast. Opening and closing theme: The Princess Who Saved Herself by Jonathan Coulton.