Sometimes a protagonist doesn’t get the whole universe all to themself. They have to share, and that’s what we’re talking about today. What exactly is a shared universe? Why would you use one? Are there any we should care about besides Marvel? We answer all these questions and more, plus a few thoughts on what stories we think should be expanded into a shared universe franchise.


Generously transcribed by SpacePineapple. Volunteer to transcribe a podcast.

Chris: You’re listening to the Mythcreants podcast with your hosts Oren Ashkenazi, Wes Matlock, and Chris Winkle. [Intro Music]

Oren: And welcome, everyone, to another episode of the Mythcreants podcast. I’m Oren. With me today is…

Wes: Wes…

Oren: And…

Chris: Chris.

Oren: And today, we are going to be talking about shared universes, and I just now realized how great this bit would have been if we’d gotten some hosts from other podcasts here to talk about that. And I’m sad I didn’t do that now.

Wes: Oh no.

Oren: Oh well. There’s your first lesson in how to fail at a shared universe.

Chris: So plan ahead.

Oren: Yeah, if you don’t plan ahead, it’s not gonna work. Okay. So, I just want to give a quick definition of what a shared universe is by my account, because they can get a little confusing, with what’s the difference between a shared universe and a series.

So, a shared universe is a situation where multiple stories with different characters exist in the same setting, and you do not have to consume them in order. So the Marvel Universe, in theory, is a shared universe. You’re not supposed to have to watch every Marvel film to know what’s happening in Infinity War. Discworld (Terry Pratchett) is a shared universe, because it’s got all of these different books that you don’t have to read in order. You can pick up a Guards book (Ankh-Morpork City Watch series), and then you can go read a Witch book (Witches series), and it’s okay. Even though one of them was published later.

As opposed to a long series, like Abhorsen (Garth Nix) or Narnia (C.S. Lewis), which are very long and are about different people over the course of the series, but you are expected to read them in order. If you pick up the fourth Narnia book without having read the first three, you are going to be confused, and that’s on you. As long as it’s labeled properly, that this is the fourth book of a Narnia series. You should know not to do that.

Wes: I’m thinking about your definition, and yeah, it’s really a question of, does it stand alone?

Oren: Right.

Wes: And not confuse you.

Oren: Right.

Wes: That’s interesting, ‘cuz the fourth Narnia book is The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, and that’s the one where just a captain gets a boat and just goes and sails out. And there’s none of the kids, I don’t even think Aslan’s in that one.

Oren: I’m sorry to have to have to correct you, but yes, Aslan is in that one.

Wes: Well, isn’t he in every one?

Oren: Yes. But he’s there, and I think he yells at Lucy. So, that’s actually the third one, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is book three, and that is the one with the boat. And that has Lucy and Edward, I think, is the other one. The two younger kids are in that one, along with their world’s worst cousin.

Wes: What about the first book? Sorry to totally stop you, Oren.

Oren: No, it’s fine.

Wes: ‘Cuz I’m definitely puzzling out. We’ve talked about the Chronicles of Prydain (Lloyd Alexander), right? The Book of Three, The Black Cauldron, and that is definitely a series in my mind, because those events happen very close together chronologically, and Narnia happens in different time and space, if I’m remembering it correctly.

Oren: It does.

Wes: Yeah. Like Magician’s Nephew, barely connects to The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

Chris: I would also say they have to have different main characters.

Wes: Yeah.

Chris: I don’t feel like, even if you can read them out of order, you could call them a shared universe, if it’s always the same main character. The point is that it’s shared. Well, shared by who? Different characters. Different main characters that can appear in each other’s stories is, I think, what makes them exciting.

Oren: And to address both of those points, yes, it generally has to be about different characters, otherwise it’s just one universe. It’s not shared with anybody. And Narnia does have prequels, but you are still supposed to have read the previous Narnia books before you read the prequel Narnia books, even though their chronological order is different. It would be like watching the Star Wars films in chronological order—you’re clearly not supposed to do that. I mean, you shouldn’t watch the prequels at all, but the prequels of Star Wars are clearly designed with the idea that you have watched the original trilogy first. Which they have to be, because the original trilogy came out first.

Chris: If it’s a series all in a sequence and it doesn’t feel like a shared universe, it feels like one show or something.

Wes: Right. So how does Solo or Rogue One play into this for Star Wars?

Oren: So, Solo and Rogue One are an example of a universe that is slowly taking some steps into becoming a shared universe, which was then immediately walked back when Solo flopped super hard.

Chris: Yeah. I mean, I think Disney is definitely intending Star Wars to become—last I heard, they were making the show called the Mandalorian, which is not actually about Boba Fett, it turns out, but it’s clearly just kind of a spinoff thing. Once you have enough spinoffs, or even sometimes just one spin off, if it happens concurrently and it has a different main character, then you’re pretty much getting a shared universe. So Buffy (the Vampire Slayer), for instance, we’ve got Buffy, and we’ve got Angel. That would be a shared Buffy-verse, right? Harry Potter now, we’ve got a kind of Harry Potter-verse thing happening with enough stories. I don’t know … that one, there are definitely prequels, and Harry Potter happens later. So that might be fuzzier.

Oren: Yeah. Harry Potter is not a shared universe yet. You’re clearly still supposed to have read or watched the original seven before you see Fantastic Beasts. Otherwise, there’s going to be lots of stuff in there like, “he was taught by Dumbledore,*wink*.” Which is a bad thing on its own, but it’s clear—

Chris: I think the point is that a shared universe really exists for crossovers to happen, the crossover being that you get the surprise appearance of one character who was the star of a different set of stories in the same setting. So, even in Star Trek, we see Captain Picard at the start of DS9 (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine). DS9 and TNG (Star Trek: The Next Generation) happened concurrently, at least part of them.

Oren: And I was going to say, there are basically two benefits to a shared universe. There’s crossovers, which the MCU makes huge use of. That’s basically the entire selling point of the Marvel films, is crossovers. ‘Cuz we all love crossovers. I love crossovers. I hate all the DC shows, but I love their crossover episodes. I don’t understand. (joking) I think I have a problem. So that’s one benefit. The other benefit is with a shared universe, you can explore the setting and you can flesh out the setting to a point where the setting becomes the selling point.

Marvel is not doing that. Marvel is doing almost the opposite of that. The world that the Marvel universe takes place in almost doesn’t exist. It’s like our world, but not even, really. It’s like the real world, but without things in it that Marvel doesn’t want to have to deal with.

Chris: Yeah. I have to say Marvel’s focus on crossovers without developing the world is a fantastic example of the problem that happens with shared universes, where we have too many heroes in too little space. This town is not big enough for all of them.

Oren: Right. And that’s a classic problem with shared universe stories, like where is the other character?

Chris: Why don’t they help each other?

Oren: Right. And it’s most common in visual mediums because it’s harder to bring in other characters in a visual medium; both because it costs money, and because visual mediums in general are more sensitive to how many characters they have. Even though I don’t love Infinity War, I am really impressed by how well they manage to balance that many characters.

Wes: Yeah, true.

Chris: Yeah. Well, visual mediums are just more pressed for time. You know, they’re more tightly plotted than—a novel’s a really long story, and so, there’s just a lot more time to do stuff like that.

Oren: And of course, the premise of the setting also makes a difference. Like, in Discworld, we don’t generally have to ask, where is Vimes during the Witch story? Because we know where Vimes is. He’s in Ankh-Morpork. That’s like, three weeks away, and he doesn’t even know about this tiny village where the witches live. There’s no reason for him to be here.

Wes: He’s got a job.

Oren: And sometimes he shows up anyway, which is great and we all love it, but he doesn’t have to be there. We’re not expecting him to be there. Whereas with Marvel, it’s like Captain America is running around and Hydra’s taken over S.H.I.E.L.D., and it’s like, when are you going to call Tony? Tony hated S.H.I.E.L.D., he would love an excuse to fight it, but no, we can’t do that because we can’t afford Robert Downey, Jr. for this movie.

Chris: And especially when you have huge, epic stakes, it’s really the size of the space, the setting that they’re in, versus how big the stakes are, because the problem with the MCU is, everything takes place, at least on—okay, some of it is outside Earth, but it’s very Earth-centric, right? So you get this feeling of a small space, and then you have huge, world-ending stakes. And so, it’s really weird that all of the heroes that are in that space don’t team up to protect that space.

Wes: Yeah.

Oren: And like this problem is multiplied a million-fold in the comics, because at least in the films, there are only two dozen heroes or so, whereas there are literally hundreds in the DC and Marvel main settings. And we just have to pretend that they don’t know each other for most of their—

Wes: I thought we just pretended that there are no non-powered people in those comics.

Chris: Where Star Trek has lots and lots of space, right? And they haven’t really used it to its full capacity, but they’ve established places in the Delta Quadrant in Voyager that would take 70 years for a ship to travel at warp speed to get there. So just in the setting, there’s so much opportunity to have people—even a planet could be blown up, and it wouldn’t necessarily be reasonable for the Enterprise to be there. Depending on where it is, that gives them a lot more room. Granted, with the size of the space, if they really did have lots of different shows in different parts of the galaxy, bringing heroes together might be a little tough, like is a wormhole gonna open up every time we want to have a crossover?

Oren: I mean, that’s basically what they started doing in the TNG films. They had to keep coming up with new reasons why Worf was there, because he’s not actually part of the Enterprise crew anymore. So originally, it was that the Defiant was sent to fight the Borg, and for some reason, Worf is the only main cast member from Deep Space Nine that was on it. The rest of Deep Space Nine’s crew was taking a nap or something. So it’s just Worf, and he gets picked up by the Enterprise during the battle. (sarcastically) Okay. Sure. Then in Insurrection, it’s, oh, Worf just happened to be stopping by on some shore leave. That’s cool. Okay. And then, I think in Nemesis, they just stopped caring, and I don’t think they even give a reason.

Chris: Whenever Worf is here.

Wes: (laughs) Here’s Worf.

Oren: I mean, this is definitely the movie where literally no one cares, so that’s fair, but I’d say that Star Trek makes minimal use of crossovers. It has a few, but not a ton. I’d say where it mainly benefits from its shared universe is the Deep Space Nine/TNG combo where TNG would run around finding things and being like, hey, that’s a Cardassian. That’s a Romulan. Those are cool. Hey, did you know, Klingons exist? Sweet. And then Deep Space Nine will be like, alright, let’s have an arc for each of those. And then they got real deep into it. And you could really feel the meat of the Star Trek universe. The meat, I tell you.

Chris: I still think, though, overall, the Star Trek franchise did not have enough repeating features to make this—I think the setting still could have felt a lot more real if a lot of the minor races that are not huge features would just repeat a little more often. I would like to have more shows that have the Andorians just show up. You know, not even for one episode or something, and instead of constantly inventing new races, I mean, it does give you the idea that the galaxy’s big, which makes perfect sense, but the setting would just feel more real if we saw the same races repeated again more often. And I think they don’t do that because every writer wants to make up their own thing and they want it to fit to whatever plot they want from the episode, without thinking about what they’ve established in the rest of the setting. There’s various reasons, but I really feel like they could have easily put a little bit more effort into that.

Oren: Right. And especially when you get to the Dominion War, that does start to raise some questions. ‘Cuz by the time you get to the Dominion War, you’ve established that the Federation is bordered by fifty or so very powerful, very hostile alien races that the Federation is constantly on the brink of war with, because they just do a different one every time they want to do one of those on-the-brink-of-war episodes. And that does start to raise some questions about where these other alien species fit into the Dominion’s conquest ideas. It implies a much more complex setting than they actually have time to show us.

Chris: I have to say, with the MCU, it definitely is impressive how many characters they managed to fit into Infinity War. I do think there are a lot of consequences for having stories that have that many characters.

Oren: Yeah. And the Marvel universe is actually starting to fail one of the criteria is of the shared universe, which is that you don’t have to watch them in order.

Wes: Yeah.

Oren: Because there can be a series within a shared universe, right? That’s actually what Discworld does. Discworld has the Guard series. And the Witch series. Unfortunately, they’re not always very well labeled, which is definitely a problem. But at least, if you know what they are, those are the series to read in order, versus the ones you can just pick up whenever you feel like. And in theory, Marvel should be able to do that fairly easily. The Thor movies are a series, and the Captain America movies are a series, and the Avengers movies are a series. But once you start getting into these crossovers, like, for example, if you watch Infinity War without having seen Thor: Ragnarok, you’re going to be a little confused. It’s like, what’s happening with Thor? Clearly, a lot happened since the last time we saw him. And it’s kind of plot-important. And ironically, you’re also going to be confused if you did watch Ragnarok, because they immediately sweep all that stuff under the rug.

Wes: Which was so good.

Oren: Right. Which is too bad, but that’s the thing, right? So, they’re not terrible, but they’re definitely banking on people having seen way more of these movies than they probably should.

Chris: But to be fair to Marvel, the reason why this worked as well as it has, is that they’ve really put in a lot of investment in the franchise and the health of the franchise, which is a big problem, as a lot of spec fic stuff is taken up by major media companies and is becoming very valuable IPs (intellectual properties), is that a lot of them are just trying to cash in without thinking about the long-term health of the franchise to make sure that it still has fans, and that they’re putting out high quality stories that will keep the fan base excited. I’m really worried about Harry Potter right now. It’s existing on the good graces of the fans that got there from the high quality books. But now the stories are just a complete mess, and they can only ride on the excitement from the books for so long. And this is definitely something that Star Wars learned, that you can’t just put out whatever you feel like and maintain the franchise.

Oren: And I would say that the reason that Solo failed as badly as it did, is specifically because Solo does not feel like part of a shared universe. It’s a prequel. So it has characters that we know about, but it’s about a bunch of stuff that we don’t have any reason to care about. Nothing that we’ve seen previously has gotten us interested in Corellia or Han’s backstory. We didn’t really want to know any of those things, but that’s all the movie has to advertise itself, whereas something like Rogue One is exploring some kind of interesting unanswered questions that we had from previous films about what the Death Star was doing, and where that weird weakness came from, and who those spies were that they talked about in the opening trailer of A New Hope.

Wes: I’m just saying, listening to you just now, Oren, from what we were just talking about with Star Trek, it’s that criticism of Solo, and then talking about Rogue One, it’s what the MCU kind of isn’t doing. It’s how place really is valuable to this being done right. You know, it’s like the Witches story in Discworld does take place in a different place, but they can mention Ankh-Morpork, and you know that, right? And the Death Star is a familiar location. And so, one kind of works, and maybe if Solo had incorporated Tattooine or Hoth … we need to somehow have an anchor. And it seems like setting and location is that key feature in pulling it off.

Oren: Or, here’s the other thing they could have done with Solo that I think would have worked just fine, was not focus on—if it had not been a prequel film, I don’t think this would have been a problem. Because if it was just a movie that happens in the Star Wars universe that was advertised on its own merits, that had something that we were interested in, okay. I think that would have been fine. But in this movie, the thing that was supposed to draw us to it was the Solo backstory, which is supposed to build the universe, but it doesn’t. There are no pressing questions about Han Solo’s backstory that I think most anyone had, so it’s not really answering anything. And the few things that it told us that were surprises were mostly bad. Like, thanks. Now I know the Falcon’s computer is an enslaved freedom fighter droid.

Chris: (laughs) That’s the worst.

Oren: Why did I need to know that?

Chris: The thing that I really liked about what Rogue One did with the setting is kind of small but significant, I thought, is the idea of the Force being part of a larger religion, and not just the purview of a few warrior monks running around, saving the world. The fact that it’s something that normal people who aren’t Jedi care about. Right. That’s something that just made the world feel much bigger and more real, but it’s still built off of what was established in the movies. And I felt like that’s the kind of thing that needs to be done, as Star Wars, as the movies initially set it, the setting is pretty weak. It’s tied together by this sort of classic fantasy plot line about a chosen one, you know, in a battle of good versus evil. There’s no greater knowledge of the world or questions about the world, or anything particularly intriguing about the world, honestly, other than just having some novelty and where you get to see cool aliens.

Oren: Right. It’s also kind of sad, because in Solo, they cruised past some things that actually would have been potentially interesting, like the fact that the Empire, apparently, was engaged in active military campaigns on worlds that didn’t want to be part of it. That’s actually kind of cool. I would like to know more about that. I would like to know more about the Empire’s Vietnam War, please. And it’s like, no, no, that’s not what this is about. This is about weird crime syndicates that don’t feel like they even really exist in the same world as the original trilogy— which, frankly, Jabba’s palace that same problem, but that’s for another day. My Return of the Jedi rant is for later.

Wes: And in Last Jedi, too, that gambling situation. (groans) Ugh, okay. Anyway, moving on.

Chris: But yeah, Wes, you’re definitely right about that sense of place. The Discworld, they have a map. And places are mentioned, and you get to know a specific place in a book really well, like Ankh-Morpork, but then you also know where the place is situated relative to the other places. Which I think is really nice, to get that sense of relationships of different places to each other.

Wes: Yeah, definitely.

Chris: Unlike settings where it’s just like, okay, there’s some amorphous things happening. Like Buffy, I think is a perfect example. Buffy, not even when it started a huge shared universe, but the show just made the world feel random and absurd and whatever they wanted at the time. There’s just so many things going on, you never know where, but somehow, they’re all in the same small town. (laughs) And then, then you go to Los Angeles for the Angel spinoff and there’s just still tons of random things going on. It’s just,you don’t have that sense of relationships or things that are—continuity, actually, I think is really important. Setting continuity.

Oren: Right. I mean, that’s the thing. Like, Ankh-Morpork, or I should say Discworld in general, feels like it’s building a cohesive setting where it feels like the world operates by the same rules. And if there are exceptions, you can understand them. Whereas it feels like with Buffy, we changed the rules of how the setting operates every week, and it’s worse once we introduced Angel, because now we know that there’s stuff happening outside of Sunnydale. And it’s just as weird and makes just as little sense, but also, it’s kind of confusing that anyone cares about what’s happening outside of Sunnydale, because Sunnydale hosts a weekly apocalypse.

So, you know, obviously continuity was never the Buffy-verse’s strong suit, but it definitely gets worse once you introduce a second show in that same world.

Wes: Yeah. It’s tough when you don’t have the same writers and showrunners kinda on the same page. I mean, I know we’re not really talking about role-playing games, for example, but a few years ago, I had set up a world and I was like, this’ll be fun, because I can kind of do one-shots, and they can have new characters, but at least they’ll be tied together by this particular organization that’s supposed to be investigating paranormal activity. And then I let a friend who was a player, and then we wanted to swap out, and he ran—his second adventure just burned the headquarters to the ground.

Oren: (laughs) Oh no.

Wes: And we didn’t play another adventure in that world after that. Cause I was like, oh my God, I had so many things planned with that thing supposed to be intact. Ugh. So, yeah. Place is important.

Chris: No, that highlights exactly the challenge that franchises go through. And the fact that we have all of these different writers working on all of these different stories and there has to be somebody basically policing the universe to make sure that that doesn’t happen. And a lot of them don’t do it that well, especially since this is under deadline. Every episode has to work out. And if it’s burdened by everything else you’ve established, it’s harder to write.

Oren: Yeah. And also, if you’re thinking about doing a shared universe, you have to come up with a universe that has potential for lots of different adventures. That’s important. And the scale of your adventure is important. I recently had quite a successful Torchbearer game that ended with this really climactic battle involving gods and extra-dimensional demons. And I love that game and I liked that setting, but I wouldn’t really ever try to run another game in that setting, or at least not directly, because there’s really nothing else going on there. I set up the conflict and the conflict was this big cosmological, religious battle, and that’s resolved. I mean, I could maybe zoom in on a smaller thing and do a smaller conflict, but it would always feel overshadowed by that much bigger one. Do you know what I mean?

Wes: Yeah.

Oren: Whereas again, it’s going to be Discworld—I’m always going to come back to Discworld in this episode—the Discworld conflicts are generally pretty regional and contained, and they don’t feel like they overshadow each other. It’s notable that, towards the end, Pratchett literally starts connecting his world more as the technology increases and they start to get trains and stuff. And some of the books aren’t quite as well plotted, possibly because he was suffering from Alzheimer’s, but it is interesting to see that the world kind of becomes smaller in the later books. It’s less fragmented, and you can more easily go from one place to another. It’s just kind of a fascinating experience that you could only really have in a shared universe.

Wes: So what is a universe that’s not quite shared yet that you think should become a shared universe?

Chris: I think Harry Potter. I think the Potter-verse, you know, it’s not perfect, because Rowling wasn’t really planning it very well. She’s definitely made some mess-ups, but I feel like that’s a universe that should be a shared universe because it’s got lots of things going on. It’s got lots of novelty. People love it. I’m not saying it’s going to be done well. I don’t think it is, but that definitely seems like it at least had potential. Hopefully that potential has not been completely wasted.

Wes: I’m all about—please give us more world of Avatar, the Last Airbender. I need more of that.It’s a cool world. It fits a lot of the criteria that Oren mentioned, like possibility for more adventure; that place is ripe for that, please.

Oren: Yeah. Although, there is a bit of a problem with the Avatar world, and it’s called the Avatar.

Wes: Yeah. (sighs)

Oren: ‘Cuz there are only so many Avatar stories you can do. And they were honestly kind of pushing the envelope with trying to do a second one. So, I honestly feel like the best thing to do at this point would be to set your story in that period where there is no avatar. ‘Cuz there’s a 16 year period where there isn’t one.

Wes: That’d be great to watch. Who knows what they could turn out with something like that.

Oren: Or alternatively, just a 200 season show about Kyoshi. I would also watch that,

Wes: I would watch that so hard.

Chris: (laughs) One show for every year she was—

Oren: Yeah. One season for every year of her life. Done.

Wes: Done.

Oren: I’m not really sure what other worlds I would like to see. I actually think Lord of the Rings has potential. I think Middle Earth, because Middle Earth has such a huge amount of history, I think that you could just pick a random age that isn’t really close to when the movies take place and do something there.

And there are also—the setting, Middle Earth is only one part of it, right? The setting is huge. Maybe I’m getting my terminology mixed up, but the area that the Ring movies take place in is a pretty small part of that world. And so there are plenty of other opportunities. Now, of course, there are some things you would have to fix if you were going to do that. If you’re going to go to the parts of the world where white people don’t live, you’re going to need to fix how you portrayed them. But you could. I don’t think it would be that hard, especially for a big TV series that’s willing to spend $700 million on—oh my God. You can hire a few consultants with that money, okay?

Chris: (laughs) Hopefully they did.

Oren: But that’s one of the things that I’m really concerned about with the new series of Lord of the Rings, is that it sounds like they’re setting it before the movies, but they still want to have some of the characters. I’m really worried it’s going to be the adventures of young Aragorn, which I just don’t want. I’m just not interested in that.

Wes: Nope. (laughs)

Oren: But the story of some of those ancient kings that they talk about in side points, maybe. Or some really early stuff or whatever. I think there’s a lot of potential there, but you’d have to be willing to divorce yourself a little bit from the characters of the main trilogy. And Legolas can’t show up, please, God.

Chris: I’m going to advocate for a very small show that I think, just to talk about what kind of shows or stories have potential for shared universes. So there’s a show that we—that Oren and I, at least, have watched and really like on Netflix, called Hilda.

Oren: Yes. Hilda.

Chris: It was this little cartoon show. The plot, unfortunately, towards the end of the season, didn’t do so well. But for the most part, it was a really good show. And so the characteristics that it has that I think that would—if it grows bigger and if it stays good, which we don’t know—make it a good shared universe space is, A) all of the plots are small-scale. So it’s kind of personal stories. It’s very light, which makes it easy to have lots of stories going in, in a small space. The world is very novel and interesting. It’s a surrealist fantasy world with very playful elements in it that are very interesting, which means that it’s a world that people want to know more about.

We’ve seen a small part of the world, but we’ve already gotten a sense of place in a sense that the world is much bigger. So the show starts out with Hilda living out in the countryside. And then, after the initial two episodes are done, she moves to Trollberg, a specific city. So we’ve seen a city, but we’ve also seen what’s outside the city and we already have a sense that there’s more places out there. And she kind of returns to some of the characters in the countryside later. So we already have a sense of space. And we have a sense that the world is bigger than what we’ve seen of it, and we have interesting setting elements and the stories are small-scale enough that you could have many stories going in the setting without them headbutting into each other.

Oren: It would also be super easy to do a backdoor pilot, because you could just have someone take a trip to Trollberg and help Hilda out with an adventure. And if we like that character, then that can be the backdoor pilot, and they can go on and do their own thing.

Chris: Alfur.The character Alfur could have his own series easily.

Oren: I’d watch that.

Chris: He’s visiting Trollberg to basically document what humans are like in the city. He could easily go off on his own, and he’s a tiny, tiny little elf guy.

Oren: All right. Well, with that, we are going to have to call this episode to a close, because we are out of time. Thank you all for listening. And before we go, I’m just going to give a big thanks to two of our patrons, Kathy Ferguson, who teaches political theory and Star Trek, and Ayman Jaber. If anything we said piqued your interests, you can leave a comment on our website at Otherwise, we will talk to you next week.

If you like what we do, send a few dollars our way through our Patreon. Every cent goes into the hoard of gold we lounge on like dragons. Just go to [Outro Music]

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